Question on entering in iPad and correct ruling?

[Rosborn]

Scenario one: ( fast pitch Softball) runners on first and third.... The Pitch, the runner on first starts to steal second, wanting the defense to make play on her and hopes the runner on third will advance home... Catcher throws to SS who cuts off in front of second, runner on first stops and just waits for the SS to make play, SS runs runner back towards first base and at last second throws to first baseman at same time runner on third breaks for home, first baseman turns and throws home, slide at the plate, great play but tag is too late and run score ... Runner on first advances to second on that throw home..

Scoring sequence .... 6-3-2 witout an out... How do I score this sequence? I don't want to give runner on first a stolen base because she advanced via the throw to hone plate... I don't want to give the runner on third base a stolen base for same reason.. .she didnt steal home, but advanced on the throw from catcher to SS, to first base... I'm not sure giving the runner on first an DI is correct either but they did let her advance with indifference since they prefered to try and get runner on third out...When I advance both runners it'll ask how they advanced.... There isn't an RBI here since she wasn't brought home by the batter.

Scenario two... Runner on third, batter walks and keeps on advancing to second while the pitcher has the ball in the pitcher circle.... Defensive indifference not stolen base? The defenseive team thought she should be called out for not stopping on first while the pitcher held the ball in the circle... The rule doesn't say the running has to stop at first if the pitcher has the ball in the circle, but if she does stop, she must stay on first if pitcher holds the ball in the circle... Rule it DI or stolen base?

I love hearing from a number of you... I have others rule clarificatons too, but I'll wait on this first...

[FTMSupport]

The first scenario, you do not enter any "touches" as no out was made. Sounds like two stolen bases.

The second scenario is also a stolen base.

If the defense does not throw to prevent a runner from advancing home, it is still a stolen base. You do not take that away from the base runner. Defensive Indifference is very rarely used. If a runner is on first base, and the defensive team is leading 10-0 with 2 outs in the bottom of the last inning, and the base runner trots down to second and defense does not make an attempt to get the out because they are just focusing on the batter, then it would be defensive indifference.

[Rosborn]

Thanks....

One more..... Runner one first, batter sac bunts and the second baseman doesnt cover first base and the third baseman has to hold the ball and watch the batter run to first.... Maybe a mental error, but I hate to give the other team a base hit on that and give our pitcher a charged it... I've actually give it an error to the second baseman on a common sense .... She screwed up and if someone should pay a price .... It should be her, NOT out pitcher who is doing her job! Some thing. The scoring jsut don't make sense.... I heard of some giving the batter a FC on a fly to the out field because of dumb base running and the runner not getting enough of a lead to advance it the fly ball isnt caught... A FC is exactly that..... It states that the fielder has their choice of which player they want to put out (fielders choice) and in this case there is no choice so calling it a fielders choice is just wrong. That's like calling a ball a strike... Oxymoron .... Calling it a fielders choice when the fielder doesn't have a choice, common sense .... Maybe the rule need revisited...

Another one.... Dropped foul ball that only extends a batters time at the plate, shouldn't be an error just for extending the AB. Wait and see if that batter reaches base, then give the dropped foul ball an error because it allowed them to advance a base like all other errors are required to do as a prerequisite to giving an error.

These changes would be a better indication of what is really happening and who is really responsible for giving up runs....After all isn't that the purpose of the stats, help you manage the team, line up, batting order and defense better.... Stop blaming the pitcher for these dumb mistake, not covering first, dropping a fould ball, only to see the batter strike out on the next pitch? Giving base hit to players who didn't earn them, (on mental errors). Punishing a hitting by taking away a good base hit to the outfield because of dumb base running error? Common sense approach.... ???

[FTMSupport]

#1 is a base hit - there is no error.

#2 is an error --- the batter's lifetime was extended. Whether the batter subsequently made an out or not is irrelevant. This is specifically spelled out in MLB Rules (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/of ... rer_10.jsp):

10.12 Errors
An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 10.12.
(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
...
(2) when such fielder muffs a foul fly to prolong the time at bat of a batter, whether the batter subsequently reaches first base or is put out;

The rules are very clear in both of these cases.

[PetroGuy]

I'm with FTM on all of these cases. I understand where you are coming from Rosborn. In some specific instances it seems like the scoring rules can be unfair. However, they do provide a good set of guidelines that help to keep us consistent. Most of the times the rule makes sense taken on it's own.

[FDT92]

From the OP

Scenario one is called "a Delayed Double Steal". Both runners get credit with a stolen base even though one is waiting to go on the throw.

When any runner is thrown out on an attempted double or triple
steal, no runner will be credited with a stolen base.
1) On a double steal attempt in a first and third situation
where an unsuccessful but legitimate effort is made to
put out the runner stealing second base, credit a stolen
base even if the runner on third is thrown out at home
on a continuous play.
2) In a first and third double steal credit the runner
advancing to second with a fielder's choice if the initial
throw is to anywhere but second base.
3) In the first and third double steal, credit the runner
advancing to second base with a stolen base if no throw
is made (unless indifference because of a lopsided
score was the cause of no defensive action), even if the
advance was made immediately after rounding on a
walk,
4) On double or triple steal attempts, if a runner is
successful when played upon, all others who advance
are also scored as having successfully stolen a base.

Scenario two is called "Continuation" and the runner gets credit for a stolen base.

[Rosborn]

Thanks guys, I agree with the stolen bases, makes sense... it does however record an unfavorable stat against the catches, allowing all those stolen bases.. I have no problem with the aggressive runners (and coach) for advancing.. I also understand the rules as written but I guess two wrongs have never made a right and in my opinion that's what some of these do, it's wrong not giving a hit to a batter who hits one off the fence but because of poor judgment and/or poor base running they could force the running out at second on a quick and good thrown.. Then the score keeper implies the outfield had a choice of which runner to throw out by giving the hitter a fielder's choice? Recorded in the stats as any other out…

I guess if they gave some discretion to the smarter scorekeepers and let them judge if it were poor base running or if the defense actually had a choice (FC) of which field to retire.. They already give the scorekeeper discretion on whether it's an error or hit? Go one step further.

I also know the rule on dropped foul ball as an error, but if the batter strikes out on next swing, there wasn't any advance nor was any harm done to the offensive team… now, if that same batter reaches first for any reason just change the question mark on the dropped foul ball to an Error.. Fairly simple? Makes sense? Common sense applies to an outfielder who intentionally drops or allows a foul ball to land untouched because they down want a runner tagging up at third and scoring… imagine if the rules MADE you give them an error? Would you just say, oh well, that's the rule or would you stop and think, and try and understand the purpose of these rules and apply some common sense and fairness to them?

We don’t charge the pitcher with a wild pitch, or dropped third strike, on the third strike just because it prolongs the batter's turn at bat (long enough for the catcher to throw them out running to first)? It's a wild pitch only if that batter is safe after striking out and advancing to first on the wild throw? Same rule applies with a passed ball, no error (or passed ball) is charged if they get the runner out at first, even though it prolong the batter's at bat for 10 seconds while they tried to beat the throw to first, but we do on a dropped foul ball even if that batter never reaches first base and the dropped foul causes no more harm than a PB or WP pitch in this scenario…

As a coach I want to know who's doing what to help and/or hurt the team and punishing a batter because a base runner get forced out at second by an outfield throw doesn't help me manage the team, it lowers the batters batting average and that just isn't fair, nor does it help the coach figure out who is his better hitters are, or his poor base runners.. it just show an FC, AB and no hit against the batter.. you parents, what if this was your kid or you players, how do you feel if it you getting a FC charged to you, (it's the same as an out) when you hit the crap out of the ball, reach first base only to find out the dumb runner got out at second?

[FTMSupport]

The rules are very clear in these situations. If you do not want to score using the rules of the game that is up to you and iScore allows you to enter plays however you want. But for every example you give of "punishing" a player, not going by the rules would "punish" the other side. Our feeling is it is best to actually use the rules so that scorekeeping is consistent.

Keep in mind that stats are just a by product of the game and should not be the center of attention for the scorekeeper.

[CSThunderCoach]

Rules being what they are...(made to be broken - or at least bent a little).
You are under no obligation to score your games "to the letter of the law". If you were scoring a MLB team then your job may require it. However, you, as the "official" score keeper, may apply any judgement you wish to any play. Keep in mind, that you must be consistent with your judgement calls. The more you move away from "official scoring guidelines" the harder it will be for you to maintain that consistency.

Having said that, in order to really determine the true effectiveness and performance of your defense, every out that is given (error,SB,WP,PB, etc) must be recorded so that you can determine weaknesses in your defense - even if the extra out had no impact on the outcome of the game. Each base that is not earned must be identified and charged to your defense.

Same on offense. Using the FC example, you can always look at the stat-sheet and see a 2 for 4 outing with 2 FC. Yes the avg is .500 (individual stat) but Balls-in-Play was 1.000 (team stat). Stats must reflect TEAM performance not just an individual's performance. If you have a hitter that is consistently hitting into FC outs, move that batter to a more productive spot in the lineup, or move the slow-poke in front to a different spot. If you don't mark it as a FC then you have a player that has a high average, but no RBIs to show for it and there would be no indication in the stats why.

Players need to be educated as to the purpose of stats - they are not just to show how high your average can get, or how many RBIs you have.

sorry for the long post. Habbit of a statistician.

[Rosborn]

Thanks guys and FYI, i do generally go by the book (scorekeeping) and you're both (all of you) are right on… I wouldn't want to start my own little scorebook keeping rules but I think it's healthy to think about them and be knowledgeable about the impact they have on the games, lineup, order, defense and offensive sets. I was wondering if others see some of the apparent injustices..

To the point giving my hitter a base hit instead of FC on a great unquestionable (normally fair) hit maybe be punishing the opposing pitcher by charging a base hit against her but she is the one allowing my batter to hit it into the outfield cleanly… so her punishment seems warranted vs. taking it away from an otherwise great hit and turning it into a FC.

I'll keep scoring nearly be the book, I do issue errors on dropped foul balls but don't feel real good about them unless the batter does reach first base, then I feel very good about the error.. The one I had a problem with last night's game was the second baseman not focusing on the game and not covering first on a easy out bunt.. Punishment here seems to fit the crime… charge the pitcher with giving up a base hit…or charge the second baseman with an error (not an mental error) but a fielding error in this case seems to be a way of giving a player a free pass… for sleeping on the job while all the other players are busting their butts to win, the other players for sure see her mistake and have no idea how that is being scored, they just know, like everyone in the stand, the second base cost the team a runner on base.. perhaps even a run and maybe even the game.. but let's not give her an error?

Thanks guys, I love this forum and the feedback, even if we don't always see eye to eye. But I'll not re-write the scorebook… on occasion I may deviate from the from the letter of the law when it appears to just be the right thing to do.. ex: clear base hit to outfield and the FC deal… and covering your assigned base of a bunt or double play covering the base assigned to you.
Thanks again and I love the feedback..