Incorrect reporting of games played for a batter in v3.40.

[juphoff]

Well, actually it is, but I'll understand if you're hesitant to support that.

[Danger]

Thanks for your quick response!

As far as the earned run goes, I know that an intentional walk is an earned run. What I'm saying is that, in our situation, that walked runner on first WOULD HAVE BEEN the force out had there not been the tie-breaker runner ahead of her. Even if it were a non-intentional walk, that would be the case. Instead of having one out and a runner at first, we had one out and runners at first AND second, thanks to the tie-breaker runner. An infield single followed, which normally would have sent the second batter to 2nd but instead sent the first batter (who wouldn't have normally been on at all) to 3rd. Then a ground out scored her when it should have just sent the second batter to 3rd. Strikeout ended the inning. Therefore the first batter would never have scored had the tie-breaker runner not been ahead of her.

But that's no big deal since the stats will be adjustable once you've made the latest correction. Thanks for tracking that down! Guess I wasn't crazy, after all.

[FTMSupport]

Not to belabor the Tie Breaker issue, but you can not assume the runner that was intentionally walked would have been on first if not for the tie breaker runner. The player may have made an out or may have hit a home run. But in determining earned vs unearned, all you can do is replay the inning without errors and make a judgement based on that. From the description, it does not sound like any errors occurred. From an earned vs unearned perspective, the rules state that if the Tie Breaker runner placed on second scores, it is an unearned run against the team. That is the only rule. There is not a "situational clause" regarding the runners after the tie breaker runner that we have seen.

It is similar to the runners on first and third situation, and the runner from first going to second on the pitch with no throw down. Many people don't want to credit a steal in this case and want to say it is Defensive Indifference. That is not the case. The runner gets a steal because the defense is making a strategic decision that it is better to not throw down to second than to possibly let the runner on third score. You can not take away what the offense earns because of a defensive decision.

As you said, when we fix the issue with iOS 4.2.1 not allowing you to edit the stats, you can change it if you want, but it does not seem right to change it according to the rules (unless there is some rule we have not seen regarding tie breakers which is entirely possible).

[Danger]

Here is where I'm getting my thought on the situation:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Softball-256 ... r-Rule.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Emphasis mine)

A run scored by the player starting as a runner at second base shall be charged to the defensive team and NOT THE PITCHER. Whether a run scored by any other player shall be charged to the pitcher IS UP TO THE JUDGEMENT OF THE OFFICIAL SCORER. If action by a subsequent batter, SUCH AS A FIELDER'S CHOICE, CAUSES THE LEAD-OFF RUNNER TO BE PUT OUT, THE FIRST RUN SCORED THAT INNING MAY BE CHARGED TO THE TEAM. (Example: If a runner reaches first base safely on a fielder's choice as a result of a first-to-third putout, this new runner still is charged to the team.) If the lead-off runner at second is put out without action by the batter (caught stealing, picked off or leaving the base early), then, no run is charged to the team.

That also comes from the NFCA at http://nfca.org.ismmedia.com/ISM2/Multi ... r/ATEC.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[FTMSupport]

The NFCA reference is a good one. Do you have a link to that on the actual NFCA site instead of "ismmedia.com" ? When things are left to the judgement of the scorekeeper, then that is what the overrides are for so it sounds like this would apply, but we would love a link to an official source if that exists for our records. Thank you.

[Danger]

I've got this from this link:
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_Man ... manual.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note: A batter who gets on base as a result of a fielder’s choice can score an earned run only if the runner that was out as a result of the fielder’s choice was a potential earned run.
14.24.2 When a runner who began the inning on second base during the tiebreaker scores and the pitcher is held accountable for all bases gained, score the run as earned but charge it to the team total and not to the individual. (See Rule 14.30 for information on the tiebreaker rule.)

Also, in Section 14.30

SECTION 30—Tiebreaker Rule
14.30.1 A run scored by the player starting as a runner at second base shall be charged to the defensive team and not the pitcher. Whether a run scored by any other player shall be charged to the pitcher is up to the judgment of the official scorer.
14.30.2 If action by a subsequent batter, such as a fielder’s choice, causes the lead-off runner to be put out, the first run scored that inning may be charged to the team. (Example: If a runner reaches first base safely on a fielder’s choice as a result of a first-to-third putout, this new runner still is charged to the team.)
14.30.3 If the lead-off runner at second is put out with- out action by the batter (e.g., caught stealing, picked off or leaving the base early), then no run scored in that half- inning is charged to the team.
Notes:
1. A run charged to the “team” is neither earned nor un- earned because there is no actual person to whom the run is to be charged. It is technically impossible for the “team” to have an earned-run average, because the “team” will always have zero innings pitched.
2. In the statistical pitching summary for a game using the tiebreaker rule, “team” is listed as a pitcher. The only statistic recorded for “team” is total runs allowed. The total runs allowed by a team may exceed the sum total of earned and un- earned runs. The box score will not prove as it normally does since there is usually an extra runner left on base for each inning in which the rule is in effect.
3. The respective pitchers of record receive the win and loss.


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This seems to echo the prior post, especially when taken into account the statement in earlier sections which says "Give the pitcher the benefit of the doubt in determining the advancement of runners, had the defensive team been errorless." I kind of look at it as if the tie-breaker runner was essentially the same as a runner placed there by error.

Of course, that brings up the question of: What happens if there's a fielder's choice in attempting to throw out the tie-breaker runner, but that runner is SAFE? Does that mean both the tie-breaker runner AND the first batter are unearned? Glad I haven't had that one come up yet!

[FTMSupport]

Thank you for these references... very helpful.

[Danger]

My pleasure. I can just imagine the "If/then" statements you guys have to write. Time to pull out the OmniGraffle flow chart.

[Danger]

Any luck on the compiler issue to allow editing of game stats?

[FTMSupport]

Yes, we have it fixed for the next release and it is specific to iOS 4.2.1 as all of these issues have been.