Two double-play related questions

[mitcharf]

1) The situation is runners on second and third with one out. The batter hits a ground ball to the third baseman. The third baseman throws to first base to force out the runner. While this is happening, the runner on third broke for home. The first baseman throws the ball to the catcher, who tags out the runner coming home. Question -- does this count as a Ground-Into-Double-Play? If not, why not?

2) The situation is runner on first base, no outs. Ground ball hit to the shortstop. He runs the ball to second base for the force out of the runner coming from first. He makes a throw to first base which is a little low, but definitely catchable with routine effort. The ball arrives in time to beat the runner, but the ball isn't caught by the first baseman. The runner breaks to go to second, thinks better of it, and heads back to the bag. Before they get back to first, the first baseman tags them out, for having shown intention to go to second base. Two questions -- does THIS count as a Ground-Into-Double-Play? AND does the first baseman get an error? The failure to catch the ball prolonged the existence of the runner, but only for a matter of seconds.

Thanks in advance for your input -- I love this forum!

[mitcharf]

I think I may have found my answer for question #2, assuming the first baseman is supposed to get an error. In that case, this rule would apply:

===
10.11 Double And Triple Plays
The official scorer shall credit participation in a double play or triple play to each fielder who earns a putout or an assist when two or three players are put out between the time a pitch is delivered and the time the ball next becomes dead or is next in possession of the pitcher in a pitching position, unless an error or misplay intervenes between putouts.
===

So no GIDP (or double play at all) would be scored, since there was an intervening error. So for #2, the question is, should the first baseman get an error for the dropped throw?

And I guess this may also solve #1. Well, in any case, it definitely says that #1 is a double play. As for whether it is a GIDP, I have to assume it is, since the batter hit a ground ball.

[mitcharf]

Although for #1, iScore isn't giving credit for the double play. I've tried scoring it four ways:

1. Out, Ground out, grounder, 5-3, out, home, tag out, 3-2
2. Out, Ground out, grounder, 5-3, out, home, double play
3. Out, Ground out, grounder, 5-3-2, out, home, tag out, 3-2
4. Out, ground out, grounder, 5-3-2, out, home, double play

None of these give the batter a GIDP. So now I'm wondering if this is an iScore issue, or am I scoring it wrong, or should this actually not be a GIDP?

[mitcharf]

Ok, the more I think about it, the more it seems like #1 shouldn't be a GIDP, because the runner wasn't forced to go home. So the batter shouldn't be penalized for their decision to do so.

Assuming that's right, my only outstanding question is whether the first baseman should get an error in #2.

[danmcc]

I don't think either scenario is a double play. JMO, but a double play is a continuous bang bang play.
Third did not have to run but chose to put himself at risk. It is more of a caught stealing than double play.
I would score batter as reached on error, out, tagged out, then the fielders involved.

[PetroGuy]

I would go with number 1 being a double play, but not a GIDP. The runner did not have to go home so the GIDP doesn't apply. However, as you saw in 10.11, there was no intervening error or misplay and no other pitch, so it should be a double play.

As for #2. I would score an error on the 1st baseman. The scorer has to be able to account for every base reached by each runner. The only reason the batter reached first is due to the 1st baseman dropping the ball.

[mitcharf]

Yeah, I agree with you on both counts. Thank you for the response!

[Marco Rocci]

Hi to all,

My view on these is:

#1: As someone else wrote, it should be a DP as far as defensive stats are concerned (10.11 is clear on this)... but should not be recorded as a GDP for the batter.

#2: is a bit more difficult... I'd have to ask my scorekeeping teacher. If it happened to me, I'd record it as a GDP for the batter (and put a comment on the play). That would seem the right thing to, although there are other situations in which the right thing is not what you should record on the scoresheet.

On a side note, there are situations in which a defensive error is not recorded if the fielder recovers the ball fast enough to make a forced out [10.12(d)(4)]... I wouldn't be so sure that the first base should be charged with the error since he does make up for it by putting out the batter-runner. It's not a forced out, I know, but it seems a similar case.

[Marco Rocci]

I asked... in Italy GDP rules are changing for the 2011 season... this is usually done to accept evolutions and changes that arrive from your side of the pond.

#1 is a DP but not a GDP. A GDP requires a force play. Same as last year.

#2 would have been a GDP last year... it requires two defensive opportunities (out or errors)... so we would have recorded a 6-4 on the runner, and a GDP 4-E3 (assistance to 2B and error to 1B) on the batter, with a GDP. From this year the GDP can be counted only if there is a real double play, with two outs and no errors.

I don't like this new rule... it seems to be like a gift for the batter.