Player Evaluations for Tryouts
Player Evaluations for Tryouts
Seems early to talk tryouts... but...
We had used spreadsheets in the past, paper, clipboards, etc... Seems a nice addition to the application would be to design a series of measures and tests that would help us non-professional coaches evaluate players. These measures would be weighted, could be position specific, base running times, etc.. Could rank players trying out in overall skills in addition to specific position ranking. I think having a more scientific, data driven decisions in tryouts would be great information for the players whether they make the team of not. Certainly letting anyone know their strengths and weaknesses is valuable.
Not sure if this is a popular need or not... it would definitely be a help for me.
We had used spreadsheets in the past, paper, clipboards, etc... Seems a nice addition to the application would be to design a series of measures and tests that would help us non-professional coaches evaluate players. These measures would be weighted, could be position specific, base running times, etc.. Could rank players trying out in overall skills in addition to specific position ranking. I think having a more scientific, data driven decisions in tryouts would be great information for the players whether they make the team of not. Certainly letting anyone know their strengths and weaknesses is valuable.
Not sure if this is a popular need or not... it would definitely be a help for me.
- Rhinorobbo
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:35 pm
- Location: Sydney, Australia
Re: Player Evaluations for Tryouts
I also like the idea of using the app to aid in the team tryout process ..... although I figure the ebst option at present might be to fix little bugs as they arise and also add more features already earmarked for inclusion.
I imagine you can already use the app in looking at how pitchers perform in a bulpen/tryout situation ... possibly also batters.
I imagine you can already use the app in looking at how pitchers perform in a bulpen/tryout situation ... possibly also batters.
- FTMSupport
- Site Admin
- Posts: 13193
- Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:25 pm
Re: Player Evaluations for Tryouts
This is an interesting idea... what are the various things you look at during tryouts? How would you rate the players?
Speed running to 1st? Speed around whole basepath? What metrics would be stored for a more scientific approach to measing performance?
Speed running to 1st? Speed around whole basepath? What metrics would be stored for a more scientific approach to measing performance?
Check out the new iScore Baseball documentation page!
Includes videos and user manual.
http://iscoresports.com/baseball/training.php#docs
Includes videos and user manual.
http://iscoresports.com/baseball/training.php#docs
Re: Player Evaluations for Tryouts
Each position and skill has a few subjective measures like "form", "hustle", "focus". We had weighted the ones that suggest an eager and coachable player a little heavier because at the age we coach, if the kid is willing to give effort and listens to coaching, we can fix the skills like "form". In a category of "form", for example, we'll hit a series of grounders at a kid and look for his "ready" position (glove low, weight off the heels, etc..), then we look to see if he squared up on the ball and keeps it within his frame. We'll also hit grounders to the right and left of him to test his range and reaction. This can be measured to a degree... assuming that all the hits are the same speed.
The objective measures include the speed running home to 1st, home to 2nd, home to home. We time things like Glove to Glove (hit a grounder to a kid and have him throw to 1st, we begin timing when the ball hits his glove and stop when the ball hits the glove at 1st). This gives us an idea of how he transfers the ball, plants, velocity and accuracy of his throw to 1st. Outfielders get similar range tests with pop flys, also get a throwing distance measure. In their form, we make sure they are able to turn and run without losing the ball while looking over the correct shoulder. Naturally, it helps if they limit back peddling and running with their mitt in the air.
When we evaluate pitching, we check form on the wind-up as well as throwing from the stretch. Number of different pitches (fastball, change, (at this age, we only allow a knuckle curve)). We put a radar on the pitches and measure speed of the fastball and the difference in the change up. Have the kid throw 20 pitches, count the number of balls and strikes (accuracy). Catchers also get a glove to glove time throwing to 2nd. We also put a radar on the catcher throwing back to the pitcher.
Being a novice coach, and after reading these forums, I know their are coaches with far more knowledge and experience in this area and I was hoping that, through their input to the design of the metrics and this software, I could evaluate my prospective players better. Anytime you deal with kids and their parents, statistics help make the process less offensive and more instructional. Without it, parents assume their are politics involved. Kids are disappointed when they don't make it but are happy to realize what their strengths are and what they can work on to improve... Measures can never be entirely objective, there will always be some subjective opinion... build an evaluation with a clear metric and transparent results, parents and players can get value from a tryout and will ultimately gain respect for the process. I think many of us coaches try desperately to do what is right, without a good tool like the one I'm suggesting, it's very difficult and time consuming. It will be obvious to the real professionals how much help the masses of volunteer little league coaches (like me) need in this area.
You guys are really too much. This is crazy how responsive to this forum you are. I only wish you made business software that I could use at work. Support like this is more rare than you probably realize. The pace of development, the genuine interest in your product, the skill in development, etc... makes you guys the exception to the rule. Please keep your business model going and I will support any future product. You guys need to be the roadmap for success to all other developers.
The objective measures include the speed running home to 1st, home to 2nd, home to home. We time things like Glove to Glove (hit a grounder to a kid and have him throw to 1st, we begin timing when the ball hits his glove and stop when the ball hits the glove at 1st). This gives us an idea of how he transfers the ball, plants, velocity and accuracy of his throw to 1st. Outfielders get similar range tests with pop flys, also get a throwing distance measure. In their form, we make sure they are able to turn and run without losing the ball while looking over the correct shoulder. Naturally, it helps if they limit back peddling and running with their mitt in the air.
When we evaluate pitching, we check form on the wind-up as well as throwing from the stretch. Number of different pitches (fastball, change, (at this age, we only allow a knuckle curve)). We put a radar on the pitches and measure speed of the fastball and the difference in the change up. Have the kid throw 20 pitches, count the number of balls and strikes (accuracy). Catchers also get a glove to glove time throwing to 2nd. We also put a radar on the catcher throwing back to the pitcher.
Being a novice coach, and after reading these forums, I know their are coaches with far more knowledge and experience in this area and I was hoping that, through their input to the design of the metrics and this software, I could evaluate my prospective players better. Anytime you deal with kids and their parents, statistics help make the process less offensive and more instructional. Without it, parents assume their are politics involved. Kids are disappointed when they don't make it but are happy to realize what their strengths are and what they can work on to improve... Measures can never be entirely objective, there will always be some subjective opinion... build an evaluation with a clear metric and transparent results, parents and players can get value from a tryout and will ultimately gain respect for the process. I think many of us coaches try desperately to do what is right, without a good tool like the one I'm suggesting, it's very difficult and time consuming. It will be obvious to the real professionals how much help the masses of volunteer little league coaches (like me) need in this area.
You guys are really too much. This is crazy how responsive to this forum you are. I only wish you made business software that I could use at work. Support like this is more rare than you probably realize. The pace of development, the genuine interest in your product, the skill in development, etc... makes you guys the exception to the rule. Please keep your business model going and I will support any future product. You guys need to be the roadmap for success to all other developers.
- FTMSupport
- Site Admin
- Posts: 13193
- Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:25 pm
Re: Player Evaluations for Tryouts
Great input, thank you. We are keeping track of this so that if we do get to a point where we can add an Evaluation piece to the iScore line, we have this as a reference.
If anyone else has things to add, please feel free.
Thank you.
If anyone else has things to add, please feel free.
Thank you.
Check out the new iScore Baseball documentation page!
Includes videos and user manual.
http://iscoresports.com/baseball/training.php#docs
Includes videos and user manual.
http://iscoresports.com/baseball/training.php#docs
- Phantom Sage
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:22 pm
Re: Player Evaluations for Tryouts
I like the thought process on this, but like many leagues there is a disconnect where objectivity wrestles with subjectivity. You can apply all the metrics that you want, but what a "3.0" vs. a "3.5" on a 1-5 scale for a fielders mechanics differs from evaluator to evaluator. The same is true for throwing mechanics for fielders and pitchers, batting mechanics, etc.
While many parents want to help out, the number of helpers with experience and objective analytical experience is slim. Every year we run a clinic in coordination with a local baseball training center for those of our coaches that will be evaluating. We make sure we have a minimum of three "raters" at each station and this help to smooth out the differences, but even then we see anomolies.
While the timing from glove to glove gives an indication, how do you know if it is the transfer making up for the throw or a fast arm making up for a poor transfer when you are looking at the numbers? Does the fielder "V" the ball? Is there a power step and acceleration to the target? Angle to the ball, drop step when necessary - knowing where to go with the ball when you also add some game situation evaluation. Is the ball being fielded properly out in front of the body? Do players see the same chnaces, velocity of hit, bounce etc. from the hitter? Or, do you use a coach throwing the grounder to try to get the same look? Tons of questions and a wide dispersal of answers may be realized when you consider the whole evaluation concept.
I also would like to be able to use this as a repository for tryout data and definately see the application for pitching accuracy and batting reaction to balls/strikes in terms of strike recognition. But I fear that enough of us use enough different ways that finding a compromise will be difficult. In addition, those on the softball side of our league looks at things differently than the baseball side; I assume that this is not an isolated instance.
A few more random thoughts by...
While many parents want to help out, the number of helpers with experience and objective analytical experience is slim. Every year we run a clinic in coordination with a local baseball training center for those of our coaches that will be evaluating. We make sure we have a minimum of three "raters" at each station and this help to smooth out the differences, but even then we see anomolies.
While the timing from glove to glove gives an indication, how do you know if it is the transfer making up for the throw or a fast arm making up for a poor transfer when you are looking at the numbers? Does the fielder "V" the ball? Is there a power step and acceleration to the target? Angle to the ball, drop step when necessary - knowing where to go with the ball when you also add some game situation evaluation. Is the ball being fielded properly out in front of the body? Do players see the same chnaces, velocity of hit, bounce etc. from the hitter? Or, do you use a coach throwing the grounder to try to get the same look? Tons of questions and a wide dispersal of answers may be realized when you consider the whole evaluation concept.
I also would like to be able to use this as a repository for tryout data and definately see the application for pitching accuracy and batting reaction to balls/strikes in terms of strike recognition. But I fear that enough of us use enough different ways that finding a compromise will be difficult. In addition, those on the softball side of our league looks at things differently than the baseball side; I assume that this is not an isolated instance.
A few more random thoughts by...
- FTMSupport
- Site Admin
- Posts: 13193
- Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:25 pm
Re: Player Evaluations for Tryouts
Thanks for the feedback.
I guess it depends on how a tryout application is intended to be used, but the differences in perception from one person to another should not come into play if I (as a coach / evaluator) am watching all the players and am judging based on my perception. Then when it comes time for the draft, I can have all the players I watched during tryouts sorted by some criteria of my choosing.
It would definitely be an issue if you were trying to share the data with others and/or pooling data. But I don't think there is a real solution to that issue whether done in an automated way or on paper. Even on paper, each evaluator would perceive things differently.
I can see value though in having the entire list of players I watched during tryouts come draft day, and just being able to check guys off as they are drafted and automatically see who is next up on my own list.
Say I decide to go with pitching for my first choice or two, then switch to hitting as being highest priority, then switch to speed or defense or whatever. Being able to have all the players re-sorted based on what I am looking for next and as the available player pool changes is a pretty cool approach. Each coach may have a different opinion on what is most important at what point in the draft, and being able to dynamically re-sort with different weightings seems it would give an advantage to a coach using that type of system.
I guess it depends on how a tryout application is intended to be used, but the differences in perception from one person to another should not come into play if I (as a coach / evaluator) am watching all the players and am judging based on my perception. Then when it comes time for the draft, I can have all the players I watched during tryouts sorted by some criteria of my choosing.
It would definitely be an issue if you were trying to share the data with others and/or pooling data. But I don't think there is a real solution to that issue whether done in an automated way or on paper. Even on paper, each evaluator would perceive things differently.
I can see value though in having the entire list of players I watched during tryouts come draft day, and just being able to check guys off as they are drafted and automatically see who is next up on my own list.
Say I decide to go with pitching for my first choice or two, then switch to hitting as being highest priority, then switch to speed or defense or whatever. Being able to have all the players re-sorted based on what I am looking for next and as the available player pool changes is a pretty cool approach. Each coach may have a different opinion on what is most important at what point in the draft, and being able to dynamically re-sort with different weightings seems it would give an advantage to a coach using that type of system.
Check out the new iScore Baseball documentation page!
Includes videos and user manual.
http://iscoresports.com/baseball/training.php#docs
Includes videos and user manual.
http://iscoresports.com/baseball/training.php#docs
- Phantom Sage
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:22 pm
Re: Player Evaluations for Tryouts
Yes, we do share. Bottom line, for us, is at the little league level we believe that making the best attempt at parity is important to enabling a positive experience for the season. To do this, we have a fairly complex process that includes combining post season evaluations with a ratings-day or "combine" evaluation process every year. All players are rated and ratings are reviewed to smooth any anomolies. The end result is that all of the players end up with a raw score (overall) and a pitching raw score that we use in our draft process.
Coaches are presented with the information in table format so they can sort on any column they wish to determine what is most important to them when drafting
Our draft process uses a spreadsheet that one of our parents created that ranks the team strength after each round in order to determine draft order for the next round. We have done this the previous 3 years now and the process had erased a lot of non-parity issues we have experienced in the past.
Coaches are presented with the information in table format so they can sort on any column they wish to determine what is most important to them when drafting
Our draft process uses a spreadsheet that one of our parents created that ranks the team strength after each round in order to determine draft order for the next round. We have done this the previous 3 years now and the process had erased a lot of non-parity issues we have experienced in the past.
- FTMSupport
- Site Admin
- Posts: 13193
- Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:25 pm
Re: Player Evaluations for Tryouts
Sounds like you guys have a great approach. I guess tryout evaluations could be used for "good" (parity across teams) or "evil" (coach really trying to build the best team). I guess the age of the players really comes into play as well... with the younger players, I would imagine balancing teams is most important. As they get older, or for All Star teams, college level play, etc... I would think that the evaluator really is trying to pick the best of the best, and not balance their team against other teams.
We could probably devise a system that accomodates both approaches. If multiple evaluators had the same application for performing evaluations, the evaluations could be averaged / leveled by combining the data.
Lots of good feedback coming in this thread... thank you!
We could probably devise a system that accomodates both approaches. If multiple evaluators had the same application for performing evaluations, the evaluations could be averaged / leveled by combining the data.
Lots of good feedback coming in this thread... thank you!
Check out the new iScore Baseball documentation page!
Includes videos and user manual.
http://iscoresports.com/baseball/training.php#docs
Includes videos and user manual.
http://iscoresports.com/baseball/training.php#docs
Re: Player Evaluations for Tryouts
I think a great deal depends on the age of player with regards to how refined in the mechanics and fundimentals you measure. The SAGE appears to be very involved with the sport and I value his opinion.
One thing I have never gotten comfortable with is telling a young player "no, you didn't make the team". Kids have so much growing left, so much development yet to come, and, if encouraged, plenty of promise even if they don't make the team. What has always helped deliver that message is the information you collect in a well run evaluation. Let them know that they were as close as the 3.0 versus the 3.5, with some encouragement and direction, they can still continue to develop into a player you may want on the team next year. What most teams likely do are exactly what we have done (as well as sage), homegrown spreadsheets and methods of creating a good team. What I was looking for is a tool to help that exceeds my spreadsheet.
What I would think might make great software would be a system that goes beyond a scorecard for a game and game stats. Give me a module to organize my measures in the evaluations during tryouts. This will give me some solid feedback to try and be compassionate and helpful to the players that don't make the team... it will also be a great starting point to understand what can be worked on with the players we do keep. The evaluation process can continue throughout the season to show the player the progress they are making as well as to continue to help them improve... after all, you can't manage what you can't measure. The current product records games and stats in a manner that is second to none. World Class, AAA+ product for the tasks it addresses. The other module could be a scouting module... list and rank another teams hitters, tendencies, pitchers, tendencies.. etc... Similar to the regular game scoring, except it would focus on only those things a coach scouting would think important. Situational pitching, location relative to count and base runners, patterns... quality of pick-off move... Hitters, what they swing at, what and where they hit and miss, etc... Choices in the game menu could be to "score a game" or "scout a game". I know it tournaments, we see several of the same teams... we even show up to watch upcoming opponents, etc... we watch, make mental note of a stud hitter or pitcher... that is the extent we can scout given the limited time we can devote to compiling data and calculating tendencies.
With those additions, the only need left is to schedule the post season party and give us a set of blueprints for the trophy shelf that will need to be built. Put those in and buy stock in the company that sells external iPhone batteries cause these devices will be used non-stop on tournament weekends.
One thing I have never gotten comfortable with is telling a young player "no, you didn't make the team". Kids have so much growing left, so much development yet to come, and, if encouraged, plenty of promise even if they don't make the team. What has always helped deliver that message is the information you collect in a well run evaluation. Let them know that they were as close as the 3.0 versus the 3.5, with some encouragement and direction, they can still continue to develop into a player you may want on the team next year. What most teams likely do are exactly what we have done (as well as sage), homegrown spreadsheets and methods of creating a good team. What I was looking for is a tool to help that exceeds my spreadsheet.
What I would think might make great software would be a system that goes beyond a scorecard for a game and game stats. Give me a module to organize my measures in the evaluations during tryouts. This will give me some solid feedback to try and be compassionate and helpful to the players that don't make the team... it will also be a great starting point to understand what can be worked on with the players we do keep. The evaluation process can continue throughout the season to show the player the progress they are making as well as to continue to help them improve... after all, you can't manage what you can't measure. The current product records games and stats in a manner that is second to none. World Class, AAA+ product for the tasks it addresses. The other module could be a scouting module... list and rank another teams hitters, tendencies, pitchers, tendencies.. etc... Similar to the regular game scoring, except it would focus on only those things a coach scouting would think important. Situational pitching, location relative to count and base runners, patterns... quality of pick-off move... Hitters, what they swing at, what and where they hit and miss, etc... Choices in the game menu could be to "score a game" or "scout a game". I know it tournaments, we see several of the same teams... we even show up to watch upcoming opponents, etc... we watch, make mental note of a stud hitter or pitcher... that is the extent we can scout given the limited time we can devote to compiling data and calculating tendencies.
With those additions, the only need left is to schedule the post season party and give us a set of blueprints for the trophy shelf that will need to be built. Put those in and buy stock in the company that sells external iPhone batteries cause these devices will be used non-stop on tournament weekends.