Batter passes runner -- how to score?

[mitcharf]

I had this situation come up in a tournament recently. Runner on first base, nobody out. The batter hits a deep fly ball to left-center field. The runner on first goes halfway. The outfielder makes a tumbling catch of the ball, so the runner heads back toward first. The outfielder drops the ball when they hit the ground, but the runner does not see that, and so continues back to first. The batter realized the ball was dropped, and rounds first. The batter ends up passing the runner, just past first base. The batter is called out, and since the ball is already on its way back to the infield, the runner stays at first.

I can't find a way to score this in iScore. As far as I can tell, the batter should get credit for a single (since they did reach first before passing the runner), and then is out for passing the runner. But if I give the batter a single, then it forces me to advance the runner to second base, even after I call the batter out for passing the runner. The only way I can manage to keep the runner on first is to not give the batter a hit.

Any advice?

Thanks!
Mitch

[FTMSupport]

Our interpretation of the rules is that once a Batter reaches first base safely, a preceeding runner can no longer return to that base. They are in a force out situation. All the defense would have to do is touch second base or the runner prior to the runner reaching second, and that runner is out as well.

You can see that in rule 7.08(e):

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/ ... runner.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The key here is that once the batter becomes a runner (as happened as soon as he reached first base safely), the preceeding runners are in a force out situation at the next base. We don't see anything that says that can be revoked.

[mitcharf]

The preceding runner cannot return to that base even though the succeeding runner has been called out? I thought any time a succeeding runner is called out (for whatever reason), the force is removed.

[mitcharf]

I mean, a force out can definitely be revoked in other situations. Let's say you have runner A on first base and runner B on second base, and the batter hits a ground ball to the second baseman. Once the second baseman steps on second base (thus forcing runner A out), the force on runner B is removed -- they can either go on to third base or return to second base.

Are you saying this is different in the case when the succeeding runner is the batter?

[FTMSupport]

And the force on A would also be removed if the out was made at first before the batter reached base. The difference here is that the out was not made at first before the batter reached the base and therefore the out is not revoked. In the situation given originally, the batter, when he becomes a runner by reaching first base, is no longer in a force situation so the fact that he got out can not remove the force at second that occurred because of the batter reaching first.

[OhioTex]

I respectfully disagree with the assertion by FTM that during a play a runner is precluded from ever going back to base he started at... Upon re reading the rules (MLB quotes below).. I propose the following interpretation...

MLB 7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.

...the batter runner looses his entitlement to first base (and the force at 2) the moment he is put out before or after first base.

MLB Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

if The pitcher never assumed his pitching position .... sounds like he may return to prior base...

MLB 7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.

the batter/runner once put out, looses his entitlement to first base, thus freeing it up for another runner...

iscore..
will try and simulate the situation and think of how i would enter in iscore in future post...

(P.S. also a batter-runner becomes a runner before first base not after, .. Batter becomes a runner after the batted ball contact, after ball 4 or drop 3rd strike - on the way to first. nothing to do with getting past first..)

[mitcharf]

Thanks, OhioTex -- your reading of the rule jibes with my understanding of it as well.

Fortunately this isn't a very frequent occurrence, so even if this isn't fixed in iScore, it probably isn't a huge issue. But it would be nice if it could be.

Thanks,
Mitch Harding

[OhioTex]

You sure batter deserved a hit. Vs outfield error on catch?

For now best way to handle in score I think is to use. Out > Other for batter and describe in notes what really happened..

[mitcharf]

Yeah, I'd credit him with a hit -- it was a very tough attempt by the outfielder. The runner on first thought for sure it was going to get past the outfielder, and so was almost on second base when they thought it had been caught.

What you suggested was what I ended up doing, since there was no other way I could find to keep the runner on first base. Thanks for your time!

Mitch