Scoring assist and putout combinations

[neoeinstein]

I had a play happen in a recent game where the batter hit a fly out to 7, 7 then threw to 5 and caught the runner on third off base (left early).

As scored, I end up with F7-5 and runner marked out for leaving early. In the stats after the game, however, 7 is only credited with a putout and not an assist for the throw. Is there a more direct way to indicate who should be credited with an assist or putout in this situation?

Even more complicated: Runner on 3rd. Grounder to 6, throws to 3 for force out on batter-runner. Runner on 3rd heads toward home. 3 throws to 2 and a pickle ensues: 2 to 5, 5 to 1, 1 tags the runner out. As I understand, I would score that as:

DP6-3-2-5-1, assists for 6, 3, 2, 5, and putouts for 3 and 1, with the runner getting scored as tagged out.

The current scoring method within iScore doesn't seem to account for this well and doesn't assign the appropriate assists or putouts on such a play. Or, maybe I am missing something.

Any help?

Thanks,

[TurboAg]

On the first scenario, fly-out to 7/runner on 3rd caught off base, I seem to remember that the "left base early" option is intended for leagues where leadoffs are not allowed and a runner is out if they left before legally allowed to do so. The scenario you described seems to be a standard double play. If you score it as follows, it assigns the assist as expected:

Batter: Out-Fly Out-7 to 5; Runner on 3rd: Out, Double Play

On the second scenario, I scored as follows and it appears to assign all the assists as you would expect:

Batter: Out (Do not swipe for the quick out in this case)-Ground Out- Positions that touched ball (6-3-2-5-1); Runner on 3rd: Out-Home-Double Play

Hope this helps.

[Aimee]

I just tried the second scenario DP6-3-2-5-1 and while the assists are credited to 2, 3, 5, & 6, the put outs are given to 1 & 5 instead of 1 & 3.

[OhioTex]

On the second one.. Seems straight forward to me.. What am I missing.. Here is what I would do..

Out
Ground out
Location
6-3 done
What happen to runner at third?
Out
Home
Tag out
3-2-5-1 done

stats
Out #1 Put out to 1st basemen assist to short stop
Out #2 Put out to pitcher, assist to first, catcher and third basemen

Score card
bit hard to read on batter 1 but ..
B1 out 2, TO 3-2-5-1
B1 out 1, 6-3

Note. No GDP assigned to batter 2.
He did not hit into a force or reverse- force double play

[Aimee]

Thanks, OhioTex. That looks good to me. I just followed along with everyone else. Thinking about the actual play, I would go with your scoring as well.

[TurboAg]

Sorry, Aimee, I didn't look closely enough to see exactly who the PO's and Assists were credited to.

OhioTex, I see that entering the scoring the way you describe correctly attributes the PO's and Assists to the correct positions, but not scoring it a double play seems at odds with the following rule:

The official scorer shall credit participation in a double play or triple play to each fielder who earns a putout or an assist when two or three players are put out between the time a pitch is delivered and the time the ball next becomes dead or is next in possession of the pitcher in a pitching position, unless an error or misplay intervenes between putouts.

I read the Force and Reverse-Force as just two examples, rather than exclusive examples. Any thoughts?

[TurboAg]

OK, I think I may have found the subtle answer to my own question:

For the batter runner, the scorer keeps track of forced DP's and reverse DP's only. However, for the fielder, the scorer keeps track of ALL DP's base on the definition of rule 10.11. So, it appears that iScore is not scoring this scenario completely correct in either case. Unless Double Play is selected, iScore doesn't give the fielders who participated credit for a DP, but if you do select Double Play, it doesn't recorded the PO's and Assists correctly. On the other hand, if you enter the two outs as separate events, the PO's and Assists are correct, but none of the fielders get credit for participating in a DP. (Reference MLB Rules 10.02.a.17 & 10.02.b.4)

So the questions is how to score a DP for the fielders and not for the batter runner? Am I missing something?

[Aimee]

I looked at the stats when scoring the second scenario as a double play and iScore does not give the batter a GDP, so it looks like the only issue with scoring it as a DP is limited to which player is credited with the first put out. My guess is iScore uses the last 2 players indicated in the out sequence as the put outs.


I tried a third scenario as well to see what happens with the RBI stat on the batter if a run scores and scoring it the two ways we're discussing under scenario two. Runners on second and third where the batter grounds out SS to 1st, the runner at third scores, and the runner from second gets caught between 2nd and 3rd. If the play is scored as a double play, the batter is not credited with an RBI, but if scored as two separate outs, the batter is credited with an RBI.

10.04 Runs Batted In
A run batted in is a statistic credited to a batter whose action at bat causes one or more runs to score, as set forth in this Rule 10.04.
(b) The official scorer shall not credit a run batted in
(1) when the batter grounds into a force double play or a reverse-force double play; or
(2) when a fielder is charged with an error because the fielder muffs a throw at first base that would have completed a force double play.
(c) The official scorer's judgment must determine whether a run batted in shall be credited for a run that scores when a fielder holds the ball or throws to a wrong base. Ordinarily, if the runner keeps going, the official scorer should credit a run batted in; if the runner stops and takes off again when the runner notices the misplay, the official scorer should credit the run as scored on a fielder's choice.

[TurboAg]

It looks like there is a bit of a problem with iScore's ability to differentiate between a force/reverse force DP and one that is not. On the former, it counts on the batter stats and the outs are generally recorded by the last 2 positions to touch ball. On the latter, what I’ll call a “defensive double play” for lack of a better term, it doesn't count as a GDP for the batter but does count as a DP for the fielders and the outs may not be recorded by the last 2 positions to touch the ball.

This is a very interesting discovery. It would be great to get some input from FTM on this issue.

[OhioTex]

Nice add on... I did not look at DP credits for fielders, my miss

FTM -- Aimee honed in on the part for you to focus on, it appears the algorithm you use for crediting put outs in double plays (and triple) is last two numbers ( or three). That makes great sense for normal double plays. But off for extra long / pickle situations..

Not sure how to logic it differently, but know you guys will noodle on it. A quick thought starter, perhaps a longer term rewrite of the data input approach on double (tripple) plays.. It has been a bit awkward for a while, reverse force etc.. Perhaps a validation screen after hitting double (tripple) play button, touch fielders involved in first out, touch fielders involved in second out, touch fielders involved in third out.. Yea I know how contrary this is to reduceing number of entries.. Just a thought..know you all will come up with better ideas...