Scoring ?: 3rd out on runner not tagging up & scoring run

[PJLocal]

Scenario: Machine pitch pinto game. Tied game at the end of the 6th inning (inning limit) with one out, runner on 3rd and 1st. Batter flies out to center field. Runner on 3rd tags up and runs home while center fielder throws to 1st where the runner DID NOT tag up. Runner at 1st is tagged out by 1st baseman for the third out. Force play? Appeal?

Does that run score?

Thanks so much.

[Rosborn]

The run does not count if the third out is the result of a forced out which it was. The out was before the run on a third scored since it's a force.

[PJLocal]

That's what we thought too and that's where the game ended with those last two outs and the run not counting. Tie game.

However, after coming home and looking into it, it seems as if the MLB rules under the definition of a force play (section 2.0) say that this is NOT a force play, so that if the run scored before the out at first, that run would score. (We don't know if the runner crossed home before the tag was laid on the runner at first. It was an unlikely play for a Pinto game and we just don't know the timing between the run and the out at 1st.)

I don't understand how a situation that seems like a force - the runner has to go back to first and tag up - isn't a force play.

Just trying to understand.

[Rosborn]

It's the same as a runner missing a base, on an appeal, If it's the third out the run doesn't count. It isn't a timing play, determining which happened first as in a tagged out running and the instant the tag was made the inning ends, so you have to know if running at home touched plate fire or the tag was made first.

[OhioTex]

Post edit-I was WRONG .. I was asleep at the wheel. Stand corrected.

[PJLocal]

OhioTex - that's what we thought too.

However, MLB Rule 4.09 cites an "approved ruling" that is our situation almost exactly:

Approved Ruling: One out, Jones on third, Smith on first, and Brown flies out to right field. Two outs. Jones tags up and scores after the catch. Smith attempted to return to first but the right fielder's throw beat him to the base. three outs. But Jones scored before the throw to catch Smith reached first base, hence Jones' run counts. It was not a force play.

So it's not a force play.

And I guess that's what I don't understand - if the runner has to run back to first and tag up, how is it not a force? MLB Rules say it's not, but it doesn't make sense to me.

MLB Rule 2.0 under definition for "Force Play" uses a very similar example stating it's not a force play.

It sure seems like a force play.

[OhioTex]

I was asleep at the wheel...on multiple fronts here, not sure where my head was at. I known that case citing... Thank you

Once the batter runner is out the technical force is off..
( the tag up is commonly referred to as a force, b/c you are most definitely required (forced) to do retouch, but by the strict letter of the law the force is off)

There is an appeal clause for not tagging up taking precedent on run scored when third out but that is for a preceding runner not a trailing runner...

Really the answer is exactly as you corrected me, timing Is critical. That is a classic case citation.

[PetroGuy]

The way to help think of this is that throw to first is an appeal. The runner on first (R1) is not technically 'forced' to return to first to tag up. R1 can advance to second and is only out on the appeal (throw to first). If the outfielder throws to the pitcher first and a pitch is delivered, the runner now legally occupies second base.

[OhioTex]

I really like that explanation, emphasizing the appeal nature of it.


For others reference,

MLB 7.10 Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when—
(a) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged;

[PetroGuy]

I had to double check the references, but MLB rules 7.08(d) state a runner is out if...

He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his
base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base
after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play; (emphasis mine)