Force out question

[mitcharf]

I agree there is a force play in effect, but I guess I'm not clear on why that automatically makes ANY out on that runner into a force out (for as long as the force play is in effect). To be clear, I think this is how it SHOULD work, but I am curious about the underlying rule which explains this.

Also, this does still does allow for one of the scenarios I described:

Very slow runner on first base (R1), very fast runner on third base (R2), very fast batter. Two outs.
- Batter hits ball that is not caught, runner on first base does not move, runner on third base sprints home
- R2 crosses the plate
- Batter rounds first base
- Batter is called out for passing R1 (thus removing the force on R1)

In this case there'd no longer be a force play in effect, so even if the defense would ordinarily have had time to throw out slow R1 at second base, they are denied the opportunity to do so when the batter rounds first base. Obviously this requires a batter fast enough to get to first base before the defense gets the ball to second base, and a runner on third base fast enough to score before the out is recorded. But it seems like this scenario would be a way for the offense to deliberately make an out in order to remove the possibility of a force play.

[PetroGuy]

I actually agree that in this scenario, the offense would benefit. However, it is very unlikely except for a deep hit ball and an injured or confused R1. Either way, the force would be removed because B/R is called out for passing R1. Up to that point, R1 still has to go to second or it is a force out. Back to the original scenario, as long as the force play is in effect, the out on R1 is a force out. Same reasoning on why it is a force out if R1 is tagged by a fielder before reaching second base. It doesn't matter how the fielder retired the runner, just that the runner is retired before reaching the base.

[Camerabry]

What rule are you citing to indicate that the runners must reach their next base for a run to score on a third out?

Rule 5.5.B states:
No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner...

You have no run if the people on base don't successfully reach the next base. He never reached the next base. The batter is forcing the runners to advance because he needs a spot to go. If they don't make it then it's a force out. Done. Close thread.

[mitcharf]

Petro -- That's how I imagined it should work as well. Just wished the rules were clearer on the fact that any out made on a runner counts as a force out, if a force play is in effect on that runner. I'm kind of surprised they don't explicitly state that when they go out of the way to explicitly address other odd situations (4th out, running the bases in reverse, etc).

Camera -- I was asking for the specific rule which states this. I understand how we all feel it SHOULD work, but nowhere does it say that the run does not score if the people don't successfully reach the next base. In fact, that's not even true necessarily. That's why the defense had to appeal by throwing the ball to second base back in the Bonehead Merkle incident. Merkle had never gotten to second base, but the run was going to count until the defense appealed by throwing the ball to second base. Anyway, I was asking for the underlying basis in the rulebook for how this works, but it's looking like Petro and I have gotten as close to that as we're likely to accomplish.

[Camerabry]

7.08 Any runner is out when—
(2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base;
Rule 7.08(a) Comment: Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the baseline heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases. Even though an out is called, the ball remains in play in regard to any other runner.
This rule also covers the following and similar plays: Less than two out, score tied last of ninth inning, runner on first, batter hits a ball out of park for winning run, the runner on first passes second and
64
Rule 7.08
thinking the home run automatically wins the game, cuts across diamond toward his bench as batter-runner circles bases. In this case, the base runner would be called out “for abandoning his effort to touch the next base” and batter-runner permitted to continue around bases to make his home run valid. If there are two out, home run would not count (see Rule 7.12). This is not an appeal play.



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This is essentially the same thing.

He abandoned the play, he is out. Because he is the third out game over.

If he abandoned the play and the bater kept running and actually touched second it would be a 4th out.

Done. Close thread.

[mitcharf]

It would NOT be a 4th out, as that play can only be made on a runner who scored in the inning. That was part of my previous argument, if you'll recall.

[Camerabry]

It's called a mild joke. The guy is out at 2nd for leaving the field of play. I cited you the rule and an example out of the book. If a force out occurs on third out, the run does not score. Yawn.

[mitcharf]

All of which we had already established. The remaining question, once again, is where does the rule book state that any out on the baserunner is considered a force out when a force play is in effect. That's clearly the only interpretation which makes sense, but surprisingly this is not clearly stated anywhere in the rules that we have been able to find.

[PetroGuy]

I don't really think it is that surprising. There are a number of instances where the correct interpretation can only be made by looking at several areas of the rules. There are simply too many convoluted scenarios to have explicit statements will make things easy in all situations. It is not that unusual to have to figure things out. This is one of those instances and I think when it is put together, it is very clear.

MLB Rules
Rule 2 (one of the most useful but overlooked sections of the rules) defines a force play and in the comments mentions that the force play can be removed. Basically the way a force play is removed is by the following runner being put out or the runner touching the next base.

Rule 5.02 defines when a play starts (when the umpire calls "Play") and that the ball is alive until the umpire calls "Time" or for legal cause.

Rule 7.08 (a) through (k) lists the ways a runner is out. In none of them are the words 'force out' used. 7.08(e) details a certain type of out that is also in effect in a force play situation and clarifies certain situations for when the force play is removed.

I think the interpretation is clear that any section 7.08 out on a runner in a force play situation is a force out.

[bmclaurin]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I just saw this and wanted to provide some input. My response is being made only in the context of OBR, as I am not a softball guy, and I'm not as versed on NFHS and NCAA baseball rules. Having said that, under OBR, R1 should be declared out for abandonment, but this is not a force out, and the run can score if it preceded the abandonment (i.e., it is a time play). HOWEVER, if the defense were to appeal that R1 had not touched second, there would be a force out (a so-called "advantageous fourth out"), and no run.

An even more extreme example: bases loaded, 2 outs, tie score, bottom of the 9th. Batter hits a home run. All runners except R1 proceed around the bases. R3 scores before R1 abandons (time play). The umpires signal the out and the time play. Absent an appeal, the game is over. But if the defense appeals, R1 is out, the third out is now a force out, and no runs score.