Ball out of play

[Bryan D Shepherd]

According to the rule book that I have it is from the throw.

8.4.3f: A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when...the pall is in play and is overthrown (beyond the boundary lines) or is blocked by the defense.

8.4.3f Penalty: The ball is dead. All runners will be awarded two bases, and the award will be governed by the positions of the runners when the ball left the fielder's hand. Runners may return to touch a missed base or base left too soon. If two runners are between bases, the award is based on the position of the lead runner.

Now later on in my book I see something that gives the penalty at the time of the pitch.

8.4.3h: A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when...a fair ball bounces over or rolls under or through the fence or any other designated boundary of the playing field. Also, when it deflects off of a defensive player and goes out of play in foul territory, deflects off of a runner or umpire and goes out of play after having passed a fielder excluding the pitcher and provided no other fielder had a chance to make an out.

8.4.3h Penalty: The ball is dead and all runners are awarded two bases from the time of the pitch.

[CoachJoe]

This is from MLB rule 7.05(g) also in Little League Rule book 7.05(g) Section 7 deals with Runner.

Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop, or remains in the meshes of a wire screen protecting spectators. The ball is dead. When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was pitched; in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made;
APPROVED RULING: If all runners, including the batter-runner, have advanced at least one base when an infielder makes a wild throw on the first play after the pitch, the award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was made.

I'm not fimilar with the section references that you have is it NCAA or NFHS? I know NCAA section 8 deals with runners but the wording on time the ball was pitched is still used in this situation.
I don't have the NFHS rulebook.

[OhioTex]

Does the below excerpt.. in effect make it from when the ball was thrown for the batter runner. ?

...APPROVED RULING: If all runners, including the batter-runner, have advanced at least one base when an infielder makes a wild throw on the first play after the pitch, the award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was made.

[CoachJoe]

Only if the batter reached first before the fielder throws the ball since all runners including the batter must reach the base. The batter would have to be extremely fast to reach on this play. Maybe a slow rolling ball. The original post did not mention if the runners did reach the bases prior to the throw. If both runners reached their bases prior to the throw then each would get two bases from the throw which would mean the runner on second would be awarded home and the runner at first would be awarded third.

[Bryan D Shepherd]

I have NFHS Softball 2010 rulebook.

[OhioTex]

that is my point in effect the same thing, the award is the same .. batter runner gets second, man on first gets third, are you suggesting different?

[CoachJoe]

Your absolutly right that this situatiion the effect would be the same, but there are situations that would not work out this way.
If the runner at fisrt was stealing second and reached the base prior to the throw and the batter did not reach first then, if this was based on the point of throw he would be awarded home and the batter would be awarded second. If it was based on time of pitch the runner would only be awarded third. I beleive this is why it is based on the pitch not the throw.

[Bryan D Shepherd]

Perhaps, but even if I get it wrong (and I do make an honest attempt to get it right, I'm just not going to pull out a rulebook in the middle of the game) how many coaches or parents are going to know that it's awarded at the time of the pitch and not the throw. 99 times out of 100, it'll have the same effect.

I'm not trying to be arrogant CoachJoe, that's not my intent at all, but I umpire many different leagues with different sets of rules and sometimes it's very difficult to keep up with all of them.

Good real life example: In NFHS softball, all players can be pulled out of the game and re-entered once. In NSA, it used to be that only the starters have ability to be re-entered. If you put a sub in, and pull her she's done for the game. I incorrectly ruled on it once and got a rulebook thrown in my face by a pissed off coach. My partner threw the coach out of the game due to unsportsmanlike conduct. After the game, my partner told me he would have said the same thing because he umpires high school softball with me. The next year, they changed the rule so that everyone can be pulled and re-entered.

[OhioTex]

thanks for the clarification on this CoachJoe..

It seems MLB, NCAA and NFHS and LL rules are all in alignment on this.. I just never knew the specifics .. great insight, and appreciated.

[ollie]

I have to agree with the original reply. The batter reached first on a throwing error on the shortstop. Then, assuming that the runner on first wasn't asleep and was advancing towards 2nd, the plus 1 rule should come into effect for the ball going out of play. Awarding both runners the base they were advancing to plus one. The scoring should show an E6, allowing the runner reach first and then the runners advancing to 2nd and 3rd on the ball out of play.